Kana varekon lekhavel (ramol) vareso kathe mishto si te thol ~~~~ ko agor te dikhel pes kon thai kana kerdyas o teksto.
- 1 Devanagari alphabet is unsuitable for Romani language
- 2 official press contact
- 3 Congratulations
- 4 Dictionary
- 5 Alphabet
- 6 Article request
- 7 Communication and credibleness issues ("credibility", is what the author meant to say)
- 8 Translation help
- 9 Question about Latin/Devanagari
- 10 An experience
- 11 Romany?
- 12 Transliteration
- 13 Devanagari is NOT used for Romani.
- 14 request for deletion
- 15 Russka roma
- 16 So mange te kerav&
- 17 Devanagari: A rallying point for all Roma.
- 18 Multiscripting
- 19 What dialect?
- 20 Small request
- 21 Wikipedia in Tatar
- 22 Macedonian interwiki
- 23 Cyrillic
Devanagari alphabet is unsuitable for Romani language[modificare sursă]
It seems that the supporters of using Devanagari for writing Romani language ignore that Roma have never used this alphabet, as it was created in the 12th century, after Roma had emigrated from the Indus Valley. Devanagari is an idle attempt to attach to Romani language a false identity.- Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 184.108.40.206
- The same question as for the others who have some personal purposes in denigrating the use of this script: do you know how to write in Devanagari? I said previously many times in this talk page that Devanagari is better suited, because it has all the sounds of the Romani language, including the specific Indo-Aryan ones (aspirated, occasional retroflexes...). The aspirated थ, one letter here, needs two in Latin: th. This if I would exclude even basic sounds that do not have counterpart in the original Latin alphabet, like श, which in Latin is written as sh/ś/š/ş. In Devanagari there is no doubt how to write Romanes, on the other hand such statement would be far from true in the Latin case. As for the idea that Devanagari was "invented" in the 12th century, probably here too you don't know how they looked like the previous writing styles from the Brahmi familiy. Such statement would suppose that the contemporary users of the Latin alphabet should drop it because the contemporary handwriting and the minuscule are not the same as the majuscule used by the Romans. The same as in the case of the previous unsupported statements, I invite you to present your real problem with this writing system (but I think you won't state it too, because it is an undemocratic idea). Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 25 deshuekhtonai 2007 21:45 (UTC)
It is not "MY" real problem. It's the whole Romani community's problem, that will NEVER use this absurd writing. There are many alphabets which are perfectly suitable to Romani sounds (by the way, which Romany dialect you take as reference for the "correct" Romani sound?), by which your claim about devanagari is utterly false and biased. I guess that your Romani sounds quite artificial for most Roma in the world, as I can see by reading the foreign terms you write in these pages, which are unknown by 99.9% of Roma. You are creating a false Romani identity. - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 220.127.116.11
- I guess you don't even speak Romani, or, if you happen to know something, you're just polemic, you're loud but you don't give answers to what I said previously. This talk page seems to attract all kind of self-proclaimed thought police on Romani issues, speaking in the name of all the Roma. You want to write in Latin? That would be great, please. But don't impede on the the Roma's rights to write the way they like. You are not accustomed to the idea that some write in Devanagari? Well, you better should, life goes on, we won't be deterred by such racist attitudes. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 29 duitonai 2008 10:44 (UTC)
Ashun DILEA, kon chi zhanel Romanes san tu, ke thos divaya ke konik anda e Rom mothol. Tu san ferdi yekh chorho gazho indiano dilo ke kamel le Romen te aven dile sar tut. Kon chi del atveto san tu, ke nashti phenes savo dialekto lian sar "chiri" Romani shib. Intaine del varekon duma tusa. Zhanes mishto ke nai chi yekh Rom ke ramol kodo alfabeto dilo ke tu kames (thai shoxa si te avel chi yekh). -- Listen, you idiot, who does not speak Romani is you, as you write improperly. You are only a poor fool, you are not Rom but an Indian gadjo that wants Roma to become as you like. Who does not give answers is you, that have not specified which dialect is that you take for "your" Romani language. It's idle to speak with you. You know perfectly that there is not a single Rom using the stupid alphabet that you want to impose (and never will be any).- Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 18.104.22.168
- Don't worry, there are enough things written here to make clear who is the idiot. This racist European Gajo lives in a dreamland, probably not aware that the times of the Crusades are long gone. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 3 tritonai 2008 12:37 (UTC)
Do you usually write watching yourself on the mirror as you did above? Because, for all Rom, it's clear, yes, that the idiot is that who tries to impose an alphabet that no Rom has ever used, and will never use. If in your dreamland you see Roma writing using devanagari, go on dreaming, poor guy! - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 22.214.171.124
- So I was right thinking that you have some serious identity problems, Mr. Don Quijote de la 99.9%. Now you propose yourself as my mirror. Thanks for the offer, but I decline it. Be strong, be yourself, I can't help you further. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 3 tritonai 2008 15:25 (UTC)
It is evident how stupid you are, as you are unable to give any coherent answer, only to defend your stupid position. For your information, I'm teaching Romani language to Spanish Gitanos who are eager to learn the language they have lost. They're making a big effort to learn properly, using an alphabet that they already know. Just imagine how couold they react if somebody proposes them to learn an uncomprehensible bulk of stupid signs that mean nothing for them. If we want to be abreast with time, so it's more reasonable to write Romani in Chinese script, as it's becoming more necessary in Europe nowadays, than your stupid devanagari that not even in India is known by the large majority of illiterate population of that country. Teach first that alphabet to thosae who must learn to read in their own language, and don't try to impose these runes to a people that is at this stage of history fully European. - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 126.96.36.199
- In this case I am really worried for those pupils, I don't know how did you manage to get that post. You look rather like a a racist time-bomb that will explode sooner or later. All that you said until now would be enough to put you in jail or on a psychiatrist's couch. Personally, I'll think very seriously about this dangerous situation. For your information there are enough Roma learning Devanagari, see this album of the second year's Romani faculty in Bucharest. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 3 tritonai 2008 16:09 (UTC)
It's me who is worried for those poor pupils learning an alphabet that will be completely useless for them (besides the fact that Romanian Roma must first learn to speak Romani, as theirs is plenty of Romanian). I see that you are fond of attaching your problems to others, as the only one who needs to be treated by a psychiatrist if not put in jail is you. You ignore that all Romani teachers in Spain (all of them Roma, not like that Romanian gadjo who teaches the poor ones in Bucharest) consider your devanagari script a madness for Romani language. And I'm speaking of internationally recognized teachers. I see, you have a great problem with yourself, perhaps you need to change your alimentary habits, as what you're eating damages your brain. - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 188.8.131.52
- "theirs is plenty of Romanian" - I see that your samples of Romani are full of originally non-Romani words, that you are even proud of;
- "that Romanian gadjo" - there is also Delia Grigore (Romani) there, don't misinform the people;
- "those poor pupils", "teaches the poor ones" - this is really disparaging, did your parents indoctrinated you when you were little that "the poor Gypsies will rob you, be aware"?
- So, again, how did this racist, bad-mouthing, Gypsy-indoctrinated Gajo became the teacher of the Roma? I don't get it. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 3 tritonai 2008 17:54 (UTC)
What you call "non-Romani" words are indeed "non-Hindi" words. Romani language, like every normal language, evolves.
If Delia Grigore has been fooled by the "enlightenment" of those "all-knowing gadje", it's not my problem.
As I'm a full-blooded Rom, my parents have given me a correct Romani education.
The racist, bad-mouthing, wannabe Gypsy-indoctrinated gadjo who wants to become the teacher of the Roma is YOU. Don't insult me by calling me gadjo, because the gadjo here is YOU. - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 184.108.40.206
- Say what you want, you already fell into shame, now Roma know what you really think about them. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 3 tritonai 2008 19:34 (UTC)
The only shameful person here is you, as you're insulting Roma with your stubbornly idiot behavior. - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 220.127.116.11
official press contact[modificare sursă]
Is there anyone who wants to be the official press contact for this language, in the odd case anyone from the press wants to talk to a contributor to this project? If so, contact me at en:user:zanimum. -- Zanimum 18:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Congratulations to the Roma community on the opening of this new Wikipedia!
I wish you great success!--Amire80 12:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- It is not the Roma community that has opened this Wikipedia. They are gadje who pretend to be Roma...
Are you aware of any (free) online dictionaries that could help one understand texts written in Romani (or transliterations of spoken Romani texts)? -- 18.104.22.168 22 April 2006 18:25 (UTC)
- Please watch the articles linked in the "In other language" section at Romani ćhib.
- At en:Romani language#External links you can find Romani - English Dictionary etc. Gangleri · T · m: Th · T
Of the many absurd alphabets invented for Romani shib, devanagari is the most absurd and unsuitable of all!!! Fortunately, Roma will never use it!!! - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 22.214.171.124
- You seem to be very determined! :-) Can you explain your ideas?
- I paste here an answer that I gave to other passing confused visitor, hoping it helps:
- This wiki is in generic, standardized Romani. Some fact about it you find in the article Romani ćhib or in English here. It is not the Vlax Romani dialect; a small example would be that the name of the language is pronounced in the Vlax dialects Romani shib.
- As for the Devanagari script, it has a degree of use less than the Latin. At the beginning, the main ways to acquire and to desire to use it were in the process of studying the Romani in the Indo-Aryan context, also through the adding in the standardized form of neologisms from the Indo-Aryan languages, mainly Hindi and when studying the cultural similarities between the Desi/South Asian people and Roma. As for the formal use of Devanagari, by now there are two opinions: those who think that its use would make problems in Europe (that it could target us as aliens) and those who think that it is worthy to write like this because it is the most fitting writing system for a Indo-Aryan language, it is the way our ancestors wrote (and a tradition to write otherwise didn't appear).
- In this wiki there are allowed to be used all the variants of Latin alphabet used for the Romani, see Romano lekhipen, when there will be more users we will have a debate about the variant to be mainly used. Desiphral 9 May 2006 16:01 (UTC)
Do you want that illiteracy among Roma increase or decrease? For actual Romany pronunciation, as it is now, after centuries in Europe, devanagari is utterly unsuitable. Roma people throughout the world know only two alphabets, and it's better they learn correct Romani shib in one of them: Latin or Cyrillic (as Roma from Russia and other Slavic countries write using this alphabet). However, Roma will never use devanagari, unless your attempt is that only two or three Roma in the whole world are able to write... (not to say that the largest majority of people dwelling in India don't know even to read...) On the other side, the standard (or at least the most common) Romany is Kalderashitsko (wrongly called "Vlax", that means exactly "non-Rom"); however, the language used here is close to it and understandable, except for the foreign terms introduced artificially from Hindi. - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 126.96.36.199
- You present some points of view which are possible to appear again from other visitors. So, I'd like to give a detailed answer regarding these issues. Until now the Latin, Cyrillic or Greek alphabets were used sporadically and mostly for orientation in the non-Romani world. The learning, the habit and the necessity of using a writing system comes practicing a culture. There was plenty of time in the 800 years of Romani presence in Europe to be engaged in the cultural ethos managed through Latin, Cyrillic or Greek. Now some of us have acces through the modern telecommunication systems to a cultural space that makes our worldview understadable, that gives us tools to be culturally creative. The desire to be a cultured Rom and to remain in the Romani culture in the same time, finally seems to have a solution.
- On the other hand, it looks like, as you found this wiki, I'm sorry to say that you developed a strong bias against Devanagari, maybe for you personal reasons (since you came with a preconceived idea and afterwards you tried to prove it with unsustainble claims). It is easy to say that Devanagari is not fitted for Romani in a context where many possible readers (at this moment) don't know what's that "Devanagari". So I'm asking you: do you know to write in Devanagari? In this particular case it seems it is necessary to make available for the public opinion the facts that sustain the claim that Devanagari is "physically" fitting Romani and I will try to do it in the future, to remove this accusation. Also you present the situation as if Devanagari would be "imposed", while you may see that in this wiki, the Latin script has the first place. It is NOT imposed. I really have the intention to make contributions for a workable Romani wiki and I think the present arrangemet enhances the chances. If Devanagari will be used on large scale, this will come through Roma who will express better their creativity through the cultural items vehiculated by Devanagari. Besides the cultural stuff, the language itself requires Devanagari. A serious study of this language comes along with the other Indo-Aryan languages, in order to understand it's structure. Moreover, there are necessary neologisms to be borrowed from other Indo-Aryan languages to make Romani usable in every circumstance. In this case, I think that you or other person would say: why not to borrow from the European ones from the close proximity? The answer is that the Indo-Aryan are better suited, make more sense. An example: at the beginning of the 20th century the Jewish people brought back Hebrew to everyday use (status lost approx. 2500 years ago). They had to borrow many things from Arabic language even though they had such a serious conflict with the Arab people.
- And finnaly, I hope that maybe a better knowledge of the facts will decrease the use of this imperative attitude not sustained by real facts. The fact that people don't know too much about Roma should not give them free way for all kind of speculations and expresions of biased opinions towards non-Europen people (what did you mean by " the largest majority of people dwelling in India don't know even to read"?, also the overall tone).Desiphral 10 May 2006 00:21 (UTC)
I'll just spend few words: In this modern world, all languages are trying to find a standard Latin writing system for their own language, in order to internationalize it (for example, pinyin Chinese). Even Turkish changed into Latin alphabet, although they had to add several diacritics. They had adopted Arabic alphabet previously, but their original writing was Runic. To write Romany in devanagari is like Turkish or Hungarian or Swedish should go backwards to Runic just because it was their original writing. And as final result, besides being nonsensical (and that anyway Roma will never adopt such a writing) it's more useful that Roma become first literate in their own context, instead of trying to learn an odd writing system they've never seen in their whole life. I'm just saying that it's an idle effort, without any outcome at all.
- Distorted presentation. You compare defunct writing systems with the lively Devanagari, to cast a bad image. Your words are quite strange when they are about the Indian Subcontinent. Either you have a low self-esteem or you are a Gajo/-i who learned some Romani words, desperately trying to preserve the exotic, fictional image of the Roma. Desiphral 15 May 2006 18:56 (UTC)
Devanagari is an alive writing system for another language, not for Romany. There is no Rom in the world who writes using Devanagari, therefore, it's a violence against Romany shib to impose Devanagari as a writing system, in the same way as it would be a violence to impose Hiragana or any other system which Roma don't use.
- P.S. It's just coming to my mind how many Romane singers have songs in Hindi in their repertoire, or Gandhi Romani High School in Pécs (Hungary) and another one in Zvolen (Slovakia). I am aware of the seeds for another debate about the poorly covered area of the relationships between Roma and other Desi, so I want to remember that the borrowing of cultural items does not mean anything specifically (see the above case of Hebrew and Arabic). Desiphral 15 May 2006 19:01 (UTC)
It's evident that the gadjo is you, as a Rom would never offend another Rom by assuming what you have assumed. I have a high self-esteem of me and of my people, and I'm jealous of the language purity which you are trying to undermine. "Some Romani words", it seems that it's you who have learnt them, and are trying to replace the terms you don't know with those of Hindi, a totally foreign language for us. I'm willing to teach you all the Romany terms you ignore, if you are enough honest to admit that you don't know them. About your mention of Roma singing in Hindi, thera are many more who sing in Spanish, Russian, German, French, English, etc. What does it mean? For one Rom who sings in Hindi you want to offcialize Hindi, in spite of thousands Roma singing in other langages? Hindi is as foreign for Roma as any other Gadjikanes language is. The fact is that Roma cannot communicate with Hindi-speakers if both of them speak their own language. You cannot deny this, no matter how much you effort to impose your theory.
·188.8.131.52 16 shtartonai 2008 21:00 (UTC)== Improper terms ==
Reading a little within this so-called Romany edition of Wikipedia, I find that the authors, very probably "Gadje" - or else following the policy of some Gadje - are trying to damage our language by replacing Romany terms with Hindi words, which they suppose should be the original ones. What they are doing is like taking away the Latin terms from English and replacing them with Old Anglo-Saxon, or taking away the Arabic-derived terms from Spanish and inserting Latin words instead, and so on. This is quite an improper use of the language. In few words, this edition, as it is now, is issued in an unknown language with some Romany influences, mixed with Hindi... - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 184.108.40.206
- Now you really have something against this wiki. Previously you said it is understandable, now you find it "unknown". I wrote something in the section from above about the borrowings. Aditionally, to clarify the issue you presented, as the Romani linguist Yanko le Rejosko and the others write, there are the words aquired after the separations of groups from Anatolia onwards that make problems in the communication between groups. In the teaching system of Romani from Romania and other countries, there are used on linguistic bases neologisms from Indo-Aryan languages, as in every Romani group there is the pride of having a pure language, without unnecessary Gajikane elements. And replying to another fact of your erroneus and unfriendly points of view, for the knowledge of other possible readers, there are not Hindi elements "which they suppose should be the original ones". I wrote (and I think this enhances the quality of this wiki) for every entry (where I knew the origin) if it is an originally Indo-Aryan or Greek or English word, providing the word in the source-language. The same for the neologisms, I wrote the origin (otherwise, maybe you wouldn't know it is Hindi). Do they replace Romani words? Never. They are employed when different dialects use words form local languages. If you speak Romani do you know a word for "island"? No, it was not very necessary until now. As for the fact that you vehemently think you represent Roma and the authors don't, kana san rom, soske jas mashkar gajende te roves lenge? Kana roma kamen te keren vareso lachho, tu kushes len, anglunes, pervones na das duma lenca te xalyares so si kathe thai te keres vi tu lachhe butya te aven sa le roma loshale?
- If you will answer, please note that I will not be on-line for a few days to give a possible reply, as it seems I am compelled to answer (until some things will be explained) to this kind of statements who profit from the overall lack of knowledge about this issues among people. Desiphral 9 May 2006 21:03 (UTC)
I said it's understandable except the Hindi intrusions, which after having viewed these pages better, I found to be too many and not existing in any Romany dialect. A pure invention. On the other side, there are Romany words which are understandable, but having changed their meaning or applied in the wrong way. To point out just an example: you wrote "patrin", which means "leaf", not "page" or "sheet". The correct word is "lil". Amende si vorba te phenás "island", numa amburi chi tu chi e kolaver zhene ke ramon kathe prinzharen la. O bayo si ke kado webthan si ramome gazhendar, na romendar. Kon si e Rom ke tu mothos ke ramon vareso kathe? Kaske me akushlem? Me zhanav de chachés ke te ramovas vi me vareso romanes shukar, sar si e shib e chachí, si te xolyavon le gazhe, sar keren sagda kana o rom zhanel mai but lendar...
On the other hand, it's also idle to attempt to change the Romany words established in each group, they'll hardly adopt the terms from another group, or an arbitrarily created term. Te zhanes le Rom, musai zhanes kado. Will you attempt to unify Russian, Czech, Slovenian, Serbian, etc. into one single Slavic language artificially? Each one of them is "pure" language. Each romanes is "pure" romanes for the group which speaks it. And also Hindi is "gadjikanes", in the same way as any other language, so it's nonsensical to take neologisms from Hindi when no Rom in the world uses such terms. About the fact that you are not trying to impose a Hindi term to replace the Romany one, is not true, and I quote an example: "Ek lekh (vai artikolo) si ek kotor tekstosko so anderyarel, kiderel janglimata pe ek buti, umal. O lav si nevo, lino andar i hindi ćhib". Not only the word "lekh" is an invention, never used in any Romani group, but also the term "lav" is. "Word" in Romany is not "lav", but "vorba", "divano", "svato", and other less used terms. Neologisms do exist in Romany, and each group has its own ones, which belong to the Romany language or dialect, and there's no need of introducing alien terms from a gadjikani language as Hindi, which Roma don't know at all.- Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 220.127.116.11
PS: In Romany it's "anglusitsko", not "anglikani" shib.
- "Lav" is a Romano word with wide expansion. In Belarus there is a Romani publication named Romano Lav or another one in former Czechoslovakia, Lačho lav.
You are using a dialectal term limited to a reduced and defined area to impose it over the most widespread terms allover the world. Of course, the number of Roma in Belarus is negligible, and one of the several Romany groups in Slovakia is not to prevail over the largest majority not only in Slovakia but in the whole world. And what about your invention lekh? Which Roma do use it?
- Anglusitsko, anglikani, anglezikani? All of them exist, it is not yet a well established variant. Desiphral 15 May 2006 19:04 (UTC)
If you con't know which is the established variant, don't deny that there is one. I see that you are against Kalderashitsko, which is the most widespread Romany, and the one in which most Romany texts have been written in different countries. You are giving misinformation, establishing as "standard" the terms used by a reduced group of Roma which you seem to be familiar with, but which don't represent the largest majority of Roma worldwide.
- In most dialects lil means "book" and patrin (which has a bigger semantic area) or rig are used for "page". Desiphral 15 May 2006 20:17 (UTC)
False: lil is never used for book, which is "klishka". Lil means, "page", "letter", "paper", "document", "ID". Patrin means "leaf", never "paper" or "page". Rig means "side", sometimes used also as "place" in opposition to another place (in this sense, one may say about a piece of paper "bolde pe kaver rig", meaning "turn it into the other side", therefore, tacitly meaning also page). Who taught you Romany? It's evident that neologisms and many words commonly used by millions of Roma are unknown by you.
- Dear 18.104.22.168,
- I have read your posts above, and I am mostly in agreement with you on a basic level. However I would draw somewhat less hostile conclusions. It is, I believe, as Desiphral wrote... some Rom who now have the means, desire to be culturally creative within the context of their own culture. Of course... this cultural creativity is a double-edged blade... in turning to an unorthodox writing system, or adopting hypothetical "original romani" words from Hindi, the language certainly does become less accessible to the average Rom.
- Where exactly did you find 'hypothetical "original romani" words from Hindi'? Desiphral 15 May 2006 18:54 (UTC)
- I would argue though that while it is important to bring up the points you brought up, ultimately in the context of Wikipedia it is less useful to verbally spar with people, and more useful to actually create new content that fits what you yourself feel Romani Shib actually is.
- Desiphral did state that there intends to be no linguistic dictatorship over the language and alphabet use, and when enough users are acquired, such issues can be put up for vote. So why don't you become one of those users, and when the time comes (and even before) make your opinions heard and then make your vote count?
- I am just starting to learn Kalderash, and look to the Romani wikipedia with the hope that it will provide me with practice material, and that eventually I will also be able to contribute. Of course, as mentioned, I am mostly on your side philosophically when it comes to language renewal--it should be the Roma doing it, not individual Rom, nor Gazhe. --22.214.171.124 11 May 2006 17:44 (UTC)
My vote is already given (I don't know if I'll be checking this page for long), and is NO. It's utterly wrong to introduce alien words which are not spoken by any Romani group. Would Wikipedia introduce Old Anglo-Saxon terms for those British who desire to be culturally creative within the context of their own culture? I don't think so. Romany language is not Latin, is a living tongue which evolves as any other living tongue, and introducing alien terms is not any contribution at all, but rather a violence against the language evolution. - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 126.96.36.199
- It is a normal process happened to a lot of languages until now (of course, not in the distorted manner you presented). You think (theoretically, since you did not propose any concrete possible action for the impossible idea you assert) that it is possible a Wikipedia partly Kalderashitsko, partly Italian, to reflect the speech of some families. This only for those who opt for Standard Italian to express everything covered by an encyclopedia. Those using Italian dialects/languages would require a different wiki (only thinking about the Romani speaking Roma who are considered some of the best preservers of the Piedmontese language/dialect). And Kalderash is just one of the many Romani groups in Italy. Also, in this case, the Kalderash from France or other countries would require other encyclopedias with a touch of the local languages or dialects. Hundreds and hundreds of theoretical encyclopedias. What comes out is that the problem of borrowing neologisms is common for all Romani dialects: local ones or some to be understood by every speaker? In the latter case, the best options of source-languages seem to be the Indo-Aryan ones (especially Hindi and Sanskrit) and English. A good example is Hindi itself which evolved from the popular Hindustani, originally not used in official and elitist contexts (instead it was Persian and Urdu), but it became a language for every context with neologisms from Sanskrit and English. And finally, it is obvious that it is a matter of personal choice for a Romani speaker to opt for a category of neologisms or another. Desiphral 15 May 2006 18:58 (UTC)
What has Italian to do with all this? I find this exposition quite absurd, out of context and inaccurate. The attempt to introduce Hindi terms into Romany is a violence against our language, and the actual distortion is what you are presenting to justify such violence. I don't understand what you mean with "Kalderash from Italy" or "Kalderash from France", anyway, what you say here is quite inaccurate, as Kalderashitsko shib is the same in Italy, France, USA, Mexico, Russia, Brazil, Australia, South-Africa, etc. and all Kalderash Roma can perfectly understand each other no matter from which country we come - and even if there is any term (neologism) used by a group in a defined area, all the others are able to understand and need no explanation. On the other hand, Kalderashitsko is perfectly understood by other groups like Lovara, Churara, Machvaya, Moldovaya, etc. For example, the term used for "automobile", may vary from a region to other from the Romany "vurdon" to neologisms like "tymobli", "matora", "mobili", "litrika", "tmobila", but all Roma are able to understand what any of these terms mean. Of course, if you replace them with the Hindi term, no Rom in the world would know the meaning. That's a violence to our language, and an idle intention to impose an alien terminology - besides a misinformation for Gadje.
Yes, it's a personal choice, so you've chosen Hindi in the same way that you may have chosen Japanese, but none of them has nothing to do with the environment in which Romany has evolved into the present-day language. So, your personal choice is not to be considered valid since no Rom is using such neologisms today. Perhaps you intend to deport all Roma to India, so that we begin to use the neologisms you like...
188.8.131.52 16 shtartonai 2008 21:00 (UTC)I just wanted to agree with the last statement written here, certainly Kalderashitsko is spoken all over the world and is also mutual intelligible for all its speakers, in Latin America, USA, Europe and Austarlia, besides the neologisms are well known, because of the fact of the regular visits paid to relatives in one or another country, mostly in the last 5 decades, and I think that the International Romani Church also contributes a lot to that frequent encounters every year, in Latin America, USA or Europe, the Kalderash Romani Pastors have become tireless travellers, and the missions and encouters are a common place among the Kalderash Rroma all over the world. See Youtube, there you'll find some videos with a summary of such meetings. Devlesa. Lolja.
Article request[modificare sursă]
Hello. I'm wikipedia redactor from Poland. We have an action to make article about our city into all world languages. Becouse there is a lot of Roms in Poland, i want to ask you about translation article about en:Katowice into Romanian. Could You do some translation ? Just a few sentences (2-5). There is a source in english en:Katowice and if You want 40 other languages. Please help.
- I can do it in "Polskani Kalderashitsko", that is the Romany dialect spoken in Poland (namely, the standard Romany, as it's the most widespread "dialect" worldwide). However, you should have a little patience; we Roma are always travelling, and that's what I'm doing today and for a while...
- PS: The second dialect most spoken in Poland is Lovaritsko, however, that is to be considered the "official" Romany for Hungary, and Kalderashitsko is the most suitable for Poland.
- I don't know what version will be better, but i think that one that i can put into Romanian wikipedia. By the way, polish version article about Romanian langauge don't say anything about those dialects. Can You write something about it. I can tranlate it and put into polish wikipedia.
- Best Regards
- Hi. Just to let you know that there is a difference between Romanian and Romani/Romany. Romanian, an Eastern Romance language, is the official language of Romania, and is spoken by ethnic Romanians. The Romanian Wikipedia is available at http://ro.wikipedia.org and there is already an article on ro:Katowice there. Romani, an Indo-Aryan language, is the language of the Roma people, which are a significant minority all over Europe, particularly in Central and Southeastern Europe. Romania, coincidentally, is the country with the largest Roma population in the world, even though Roma make up a higher proportion of the population in Slovakia and Bulgaria. Romani is also officially-recognised in several places, for example: Shuto Orizari municipality in Macedonia, the town of Budeşti/Budeshti in Romania, and it is also an official minority language of Sweden. "Polskani Kalderashitsko" is the Romani dialect that is spoken in Poland, while in Romania, the dialect spoken by the Roma minority is, as far as I know, as different type of Kalderash (there are about 600,000 Roma in Romania, if not more). In Czechia and Slovakia, yet another dialect is spoken, commonly known as Carpathian Romani.
- The Polish Wikipedia has an article on the Romani language - at pl:Język cygański. Indeed, there is no detailed mention there about the Romani dialects. The English version of the article, at en:Romani language is much better. Also, note that "cygański", just like "gypsy", is an exonym and is not the preferred name when referring to the Roma people. I know that in Polish the Roma are reffered to as "Romowie", which is more corect than "Cyganie". Is there any way to model the language name based on this? For example, in Romanian (my native language), we say "Limba romani", in English we say "Romani language", in Czech we say "Romština". The native name of the Romani language is "Romani ćhib". Thanks, Ronline 13 May 2006 01:41 (UTC)
- Sorry for Romanian, it is my mistake. Of course Romani (i'm not good in english and english main names). In Poland there is one more name for Romani language : "Język romów", in english it means "Roms language", just like in Polish we say: "Roms cluture" but no "Gypsys culture", "Roms music" and others like this.
And about dialects, in some free time i do some fixes in article in Polish wikipedia about: pl:Język cygański and i sugest some name changes for Język romów.
- Best Regards
first of all, Romanians are not Rroma people, also called in Romanian "tigani" ["cygański"]... the Rroma it is said to speak Rromanes language, as far as Romania is concerned...
and they are so many (almost 3 million all-over the country, but many have migrated temporarily to Italy and Spain, or Belgium, U.K., etc. because they can live confortably while begging - I saw a report on TV which was showing gipsy women in London saying they are from Kazachstan, a thing that made many Romanian happy because we at least aren't any more assimilated to them)
at the beginning, when Romania was a quasi-sclavagist state, Rroma were slaves ("rob/robi" in Romanian) on the lands of the Romanian people, dealing with household and stuff
as migratory people, Rroma were travelling and made a living by stealing food, horses and money from people; there were also honest Rroma, which made a fair living by working on a daily basis for Romanian masters... and there are those who, while travelling, were part of a cycrus ( tigani ursari - they kept bears and made them dance for the public - they have their own dialect), or they gave back the look and qualities of spoons ( tigani lingurari - travelled and worked almost honest, when they weren't stealing); then there are the (tigani caldarari) that made a living by doing calderas/working copper/caldourons/distillers for romanian traditional alcoholic drink, the "tzuica" - schnaps in German
what Europeans in general must understand is that gypsies in Romania have dealt with and still deal with steling, killing, raping, etc.
I have the most sincere respect for those few that are really good citizens and live in peace and respect the law... but they are so little in numbers, that they seen inexistent...
for example, an interlop who calls himself Bercea Mondialu' and has, although never discovered or convicted, made many crimes in and out of Romania, became the protegee of the presidential family, when the brother of Traian Basesc, President of Romania, Mircea Basescu - a guy that produces and sales guns - became godfather of a nephew of this Bercea, whose main activity is extorsion of people in need
I still have to write in English, because the last trollish comments by the person(s) with the Italian IPs (184.108.40.206, 220.127.116.11 and others) were intended for the non-Romani audience, trying to cast a bad image upon this project in a moment when there is not yet too much quality information in English about Romani language issues. It is easy to tell lies and to distort the facts when people are unaware of what is going on. The fact that the language is currently in process of extension (in order to be used in every modern context) produces a healthy debate about the ways to follow, but may brings also disruptive comments aiming just at making waves without any serious contribution.
If someone feels like coming late here and seeing the project having a direction or another, please note that every step made implies a direction. In the contemporary context of the Romani language every step of this kind might be questionable but it is still a much better thing than doing nothing and criticizing those who dare to do something. Also, if it is about steps and moving, everyone should take in consideration the technical posibilities of Wikipedia, that make any change easy to do, such a good opportunity for a language on march, with a community determined to do a good work.
This wiki is intented for the generic, standard Romani, at its evolution participating all the dialects with equal rights. In this context it is not true that "Kalderashitsko is the standard Romany, as it's the most widespread dialect worldwide". For every word are recorded all the available variants. Desiphral 15 May 2006 18:52 (UTC)
Regarding other possible trollish comments intent upon the non-speaker audience, personally, I consider it is not necessary to reply for the sake of credibleness to every unserious statement. And the non-speakers are asked not to take for granted every unsustained claim. Desiphral 15 May 2006 19:22 (UTC)
Kana janes romanes, mishto si te das duma kadya. Kadava shai te avel ek romano than kana roma kamen te keren vareso le romenge. Na sar varesave so chi janas kana si rom vai aver so janel vareso romanes, mothovindoi le gajenge stereotipurya sar "ame, le roma, savaxt phiras" te dikhlyoven "cool" gajendar. So keras amenge te keras. Desiphral 15 May 2006 19:35 (UTC)
- It's evident that the author of this article is trying to impose his own theory and discredit the truth. When he denies that Kalderashitsko is the standard Romany and the most widespread one, is saying a great misleading statement, and is denying the evidences. On the other side, his own version of pseudo-Romany which he is publishing here, is not spoken by any Rom on the whole world.
- Unfortunately, with such kind of [mis]information, the non-Romany speakers will remain misinformed about our language and culture. Fortunately, Roma know that such misinformation doesn't correspond to our own language patterns; it's a pity that non-Roma remain misinformed.
- Communication and CREDIBILITY (do you speak Romany as you speak English? - the term "credibleness" is seldom used in English!), we Roma think that it's a great problem that the author has to solve, reviewing his own conceptions, which are not the way Roma communicate, and is not credible because the language used doesn't correspond to Romany in many aspects.
- Sostar gindis ke chiri shib si e shukar thai e chachi? Chi ramos sar yekh chacho Rom del duma, thai dikhzhol ke ferdi sichilian e romani shib, ke nai chiri shib chachi.
Translation help[modificare sursă]
I've heard a song from a movie and I am intrigued by it. I like it a bit but I am not sure if the words are actual words that make sense or gibberish that tricks people into thinking its real Romani. If it is, can anyone see if they can listen to the song and give us some lyrics and/or translations?Here is the song. Please help. 18.104.22.168 19 august 2006 19:32 (UTC)
- The link redirects to the main page. I can't find the song, Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 21 august 2006 10:24 (UTC)
- Try right-clicking on the link and clicking "Save Target As..". This will save it on your computer. 22.214.171.124 21 august 2006 16:37 (UTC)
Also, do you understand the word 'Kelas'? 126.96.36.199 22 august 2006 21:49 (UTC)
- Which of all links? "Kelas" means "we dance", or in imperative sentence, "let's dance".
Question about Latin/Devanagari[modificare sursă]
Is there anyway we can supply both Latin and Devenagari versions of articles besides making seperate articles, as they will need to be updated for each edit. Something we can set in the prefrences maybe? --FlareNUKE 15 septembrie 2006 06:14 (UTC)
- It would be the possibility to have an automatic translation from Latin to Devanagari, the same as in Serbian and Chinese Wikipedias. As far as I know the technology would permit only one way translation, a writing system would be choosed as the principal one. In this case (I suppose the Latin would be the principal), the automatic translation in Devanagari would be a temporary page. So if someone would like to write in Devanagari, it would be possible only along the Latin articles. Also in this case we should write more carefully the vowells in Latin. In some cases as they are written know, they don't respect the Romani phonology, as it is recorded in Devanagari, regarding the difference between the long and short vowels. Anyway, this seems to be the only available option by now. It would be nice to have the techonolgy to make possible edits for a single article from one script or another, that would change accordingly the same article written with the different script (eventually preserving in the history page the name of the script with which the edit was done). With the help of the users Ronline and Gangleri I began some preliminary discussions with persons that implement this feature, but everything got stuck because we didn't find a monospaced (every letter should occupy the same space) Devanagari font. By now, not all the possibilities are waisted, but I still have to find enough free time to try to reach a solution. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 15 septembrie 2006 17:12 (UTC)
- The only reasonable solution is to avoid Devanagari as a Romany writing, it will NEVER be used by Roma! All attempts to write Romany in Devanagari are utterly idle... Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 188.8.131.52
- And how many Roma do you speak for, Desiphral? Is it you yourself alone, or you and that other guy on here who finds pretending he reads Devanagari fun? --184.108.40.206 10 aprilie 2007 06:32 (UTC)
An experience[modificare sursă]
I am not a Roma. However, I would like to share some experience from my language about the use of scripts. My language is Nepal Bhasa or Newari. The main script that was developed was Prachalit. Another of our script that we developed called Ranjana, is a very popular Buddhist script worldwide esp in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. These scripts have been our primary scripts but we have continued using other scripts as well. The reason being that the more script we use, the more is the likelyhood of survival of our language. We have a 16th century inscription in our ancient palace in Kathmandu written in about 20 scripts including Latin and Arabic. Out of many scrpits that we developed and adapted, the use of Devnagari has helped us connect with Indian languages, the Ranjana with Sino-Tibetan (Buddhist) languages and to some extent Japanese and Bangali and Brahmi with Asiatic and Kirat languages. Hence, even after Nepal Bhasa has ceased from official use for about 300 years and after repressive policies from autocratic Governments that followed, we still have our lanuguage intact. Besides, in this era, we are using it in the internet, radio, television, schools, colleges etc. All this was possible because we did not limit our language to our particular tribe or our particular script. Had we Newars limited Nepal Bhasa just to Newars and our script just to Prachalit, our language might have been dead by now. Here, I see that there is debate among Roma as to the use of Devnagari. It is upto you people to decide what is best for the language. But I think that the use of Devnagari is a good idea. The only reason why I took an interest in this wikipedia was because it is written in Devnagari as well. It is not just me but other users are also gaining interest and are willing to help and learn Romani just because of use of Devnagari here. So, I think that the use of Devnagari is helping for the perpetuation of Romani. So, I would like to tell you people to get over Romani for Roma only and Latin is the only Romani script attitude and start working seriously to develop this wikipedia to make this a better wikipedia with more and better articles.--Eukesh 6 noiembrie 2006 17:41 (UTC)
I always thought the language was called "Romanes" or "Xomanes" (I don't know how the spelling conventions work). Or is Romani/y just the English name.
- "Romanes" is the adverb, "Romani" is the adjective. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 3 octombrie 2006 12:14 (UTC)
Guys it's bad idea to run wiki in two scripts - look forexample at the navigation tab - it looks horrible as it's very huge. I propose you to remove indic script and to create normal transliterator (as it's on zh.wiki) - if you don't know how to - ask the transliteration tables' creator on zh.wiki - he'll help for sure -- 220.127.116.11 3 octombrie 2006 20:40 (UTC)
- Yep, I consider too this is the solution. Until now, I made some attempts to see it working, hopefully, we will be able to implement it. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 5 octombrie 2006 13:40 (UTC)
Devanagari is NOT used for Romani.[modificare sursă]
- That is an dictate imposed by a sheer majority wanting to push their own agenda. There is a difference between what they propose and the current reality at Romani wiki. They want to forbid a modality used for Romani expression, while currently at rmy.wp there is freedom of expression for all the variants. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 1 aprilie 2007 09:59 (UTC)
- If by "freedom" you mean the freedom to dishonestly push your own agenda, then yes. Very true. This page is a testimony to your dishonesty. --18.104.22.168 10 aprilie 2007 06:29 (UTC)
- Romani has no central authority or geographical continuity. This coupled with low percentage of first-language literacy amongst Roma makes it difficult to say which script is preferred. I mention that there is sizeable Devanagri movement atleast amongst educated Roma in my geographic area. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 10 aprilie 2007 11:22 (UTC)
- If by "freedom" you mean the freedom to dishonestly push your own agenda, then yes. Very true. This page is a testimony to your dishonesty. --22.214.171.124 10 aprilie 2007 06:29 (UTC)
- How many of your local Roma elite read and write Romani in Devanagari exclusively, or even primarily? More than 5?
- Are they published writers by chance? Do you write (or write for) newspapers? Is there any evidence of their activities being taken seriously by anyone other than themselves? --126.96.36.199 11 aprilie 2007 15:24 (UTC)
- The contemporary situation of those using Devnagri in Southeastern Europe is strongly influenced by the contemporary political situation, with a majority of population that seeks to assimilate us and to erase any Romani contribution to the local society. Until there will appear a sort of a Romani publishing house, there are small chances to print such kind of work. For example, there is another Rom from my area who wrote a comparative dictionary between Romani and other Indo-Aryan languages, but he could not publish it yet. But the situation is currently unfolding, the attacks from the English Wikipedia give another pressure, so give a few months and I hope there will be available something printed. In the meantime, I denounce again the role of "ethnic police" of those who seek to hunt down Romani contributions and to restrict the use of this language, an opinion well expressed here by Yanko le Rejosko:
- Are they published writers by chance? Do you write (or write for) newspapers? Is there any evidence of their activities being taken seriously by anyone other than themselves? --188.8.131.52 11 aprilie 2007 15:24 (UTC)
- "Surely if groups of individuals who identify themselves as Romanies seek to assert their ethnicity, and to ally themselves with other such groups similarly motivated, then this is entirely their own business, and the non-Romani anthropologists, linguists, sociologists, folklorists and others who have taken upon themselves the role of ethnic police are interfering and presumptuous at best, and are perpetuating paternalistic attitudes. I call for a new respect and a new cooperation between Romanies and gadje, and an end to the 19th century cultural colonialism that lives on in only slightly modified guise."
- Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12 aprilie 2007 12:15 (UTC)
- Your accusations of racism hide nothing but your own racism. You are dishonest. The Romani wikipedia will be fixed sooner or later.
- There are plenty of Roma publications in the world... just none of them use Devanagari. --184.108.40.206 12 aprilie 2007 16:33 (UTC)
request for deletion[modificare sursă]
id like my account deleted (or at least my name changed) --FlareNUKE 4 septembrie 2007 01:35 (UTC)
- This is a bureaucrat's job and by now there is no user at such administrative level at Romani Wikipedia. Thus you have to ask a bureaucrat at meta.wikipedia, they are entitled to do this. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 4 septembrie 2007 10:21 (UTC)
Russka roma[modificare sursă]
Russka roma sy roma kon ghivesa pre russka phuv. Dava roma phenava russo-rom dialetkta romano chib. Pre foro Moskva isy teatoro Romen. Adava teatro sy teatro russko romen.
So mange te kerav&[modificare sursă]
Kon ghinom? Kon ghinom? So mange te kerav? Me na rrom, ne me rrom. Sare manusha mange phenav, tu rrom, sare manusa ando shero polava, so me na manusa... ale, SO MANGE TE KERAV?
Devanagari: A rallying point for all Roma.[modificare sursă]
I have read the discussion regarding the suitability of Devanagari or otherwise to write Romani. The argument has been very hot and the anti-Devanagari camp betrays an attitude which though easy to sense is difficult to describe in words.
It is very unfortunate that they do not want to engage in constructive debate.The beauty of Devanagari is that it is so very phonetic. The alphabets almost always represent unique sounds.There have been negative comments about the attempt by some to introduce Hindi words in place of words borrowed from European languages. Such a replacement has generated resentment which in my opinion is quite misplaced.One benefit of using Devanagari is its phonetic fidelity which the Roman script lacks. Undoubtedly Turkish has adopted the Roman script but it was always written in a non-phonetic language.
I also suggest that instead of Hindi, Sanskrit be used to introduce neologisms for words or concepts which do not have a Romani equivalent. For example the Hindi word for computer is sanganak संगणक and cartoon is vyangachitra व्यंगिचत्र, these words were not earlier present in Hindi for obvious reasons and they are neologisms derived from Sanskrit. Urdu Hindi's sister does not indulge in such inventions and so English words are used perhaps with a little change. Romani has inherited the rich legacy of Sanskrit and I feel there is no shame in partaking from it.
Another remark made here was that Hindi and Romani are mutually unintelligible thus have very little relation and so it is not proper to use Devanagari which is the script used for Hindi. The unintelligibility argument is bad. Modern Indian languages Marathi, Hindi, Bhojpuri, Nepali (over 700 million users combined) all use the Devanagari script and are mutually unintelligible. All however share roots and a common vocabulary just as Romani does and it would be incorrect to deny Romani its rightful place with them.The very fact that most Roma continue to speak Romani despite about a thousand years of suppression by native Europeans is in itself a manifestation of the strong Roma spirit.
Remember that African Americans lost their language and culture in only a few generations. I think that if the Roma wish to preserve their cultural identity and assimilate with the European natives the only option for them is to be bilingual. My vote is that Devanagari is not a bad idea without denying the fact that it would not be easy to implement.
If the Roma would adopt Devanagari as their script for their Standard Roma it would be a proud common ground for the Roma diaspora.
One historical example of this has been the revival of Hebrew by the Jewish diaspora in modern times. It has been written that Ben-Zion Ben-Yehuda (or, as he is more commonly known, Ittamar Ben-Avi), was born in 1882 was the first all-Hebrew speaking child in modern history. That is less than 126 years ago.
(I am not a Rom nor do I understand and speak any Roma dialect. However a European friend emailed to me the Roma alphabet: A for abjav to Z for zerdelin. I use the same words for marriage and apricot in my language Marathi ditto for almost all the letters in between, it sure is a small world not withstanding the tower of Babel)
There are currently 3 scripts in use for Roma. These are:
- Latin (most common)
- Cyrillic (Russian Roma mainly)
- Devanagari (a newcomer to the scene)
You might want to have a Cyrillic-Latin converter like the Serbian Wiki and others have. This will at least let the Cyrillic and Latin users to collaborate successfully
As for a converter Latin-Devanagari, this seems complicated and past attempts to convert from Latin to Devanagari have failed(Latin letters have more than one sound, although Devanagari letters have only one sound), Devanagari-Latin has worked well though.
Take a look at the Girgit (Chameleon) converter between Devanagari-Latin
Original Latin version:
Mishto avilyan ki Vikipidiya, i mesti enchiklopidiya savya vi tu shai te lekhaves (xramosares) la. Kashte janes mai but sar te das vast te baryol i Vikipidiya, drabar (chitisar) o sikavno. Akana, andi romani Vikipidiya si 471 lekha (artikolurya) so bariven.
mishto aavilyan ki vikipidiya, i mesti enchiklopidiya savya vi too shai te lekhaves (khramesares) la. kashte janes buteder sar te das vast te baryol i vikipidiya, drabar (chitisar) le neve aavilenge sikavno. aakana aandi romani vikipidiya si 471 lekha (aartikolurya) so bariven.
The text for the main page
Шерутны патрин (the same as Sheruni patrin)
Мишто явьян дрэ Википедия, свободно энцыклопедия.
Каждо можинэл тэ причювэл о васт тэ барьякирэл Википедия, гинэнте сыкавыпэн.
Акана дрэ романы Википедия исы 473 лыла.
What dialect?[modificare sursă]
Hello what is the dialect policy on the Romani Wikipedia? e.x. Germaniya or Jermaniya or Namciko? Phabengeri thardi 11 deshuduitonai 2009 21:28 (UTC)
Small request[modificare sursă]
Hello! I am a Polish wikipedian and I would like to ask you for your help - writing a new article about former Polish President who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1983 – Lech Wałęsa. I have looked for his biography in your Wikipedia but without success. Polish Wikipedians will be grateful for your help. Thank you so much in advance! PS you can find the English version of the article here. Best wishes from Poland, Patrol110 25 deshuduitonai 2009 12:08 (UTC)
Wikipedia in Tatar[modificare sursă]
Dear friends, may I ask you to add a hyperlink to our Tatar Wikipedia (http://tt.wikipedia.org) to yourr Front page. Tatars - are turkic nation living in Tatarstan Republic, second biggest nation in Russian Federation. hope to hear from you soon. sincerely yours, Muhtac 20 tritonai 2011 21:25 (UTC)
Здравствуйте, уважаемые коллеги. Просим вас добваить нашу википедию на татарском языке (http://tt.wikipedia.org) в ваш список языков на главной странице. Татары - нация живущая в Республике Татарстан и за пределами ее, вторая самая многочисленная нация на территории РФ. буду признателен за помощь. С уважением Muhtac
Comment faire pour ne pas de faire arnaqué sur les prix des services de plomberie a paris. J'ai regarder sur internet des centaine de site et j'ai vue un site mon plombier paris 75 est vraiment serieux. Et, ils ont des prix qui sont vraiment pas cher. Je tenais a le signaler pour les autres internaute
Macedonian interwiki[modificare sursă]
When are new Cyrillic articles coming? --2607:FB90:4AB8:72D4:5815:55D3:E3F4:14D1